[00:00:02] Speaker A: Good day, everyone, and welcome to the Cutting Edge Install Podcast brought to you by Omni Cubed, where innovation meets installation. And today, it quite literally could be everything in between. I'm your host, Merv Campbell, and it's an absolute pleasure to have you with us. What's this podcast all about? Well, if you haven't watched any before, I'd like to say, where have you been? Go back, listen to them.
These are celebrities, these are pros that we have on here who are game changers, who are movers in the industry, and people are a valuable resource of information.
So we're going to dive into stories today. We're going to share some insight, and I hope through it all, we keep you awake and we have fun. Now, who have I got on today? Well, I have a wonderful gentleman who we're getting to know more and more. I've been watching him on LinkedIn from a distance, but Woody is on today, and it's an absolute pleasure to have you on here, sir. So for those who are maybe not familiar who you are, they might not know anything about you. What's the story behind yourself and then your.
Your industry and the job that you do every day?
[00:01:10] Speaker B: Sure.
I now.
And we'll get into this.
I am the owner of DW Sanders Tile and Stone Contracting here in Marietta, Georgia, which is a suburb of the Atlanta, Georgia area.
We're just probably. We're just above the perimeter, and Atlanta is part of our marketplace.
I was in.
I would say I was adopted into the tile and stone industry because I literally adopted. And my mother's family were tile contractors.
[00:01:43] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:01:44] Speaker B: And they started here in Atlanta in 1929.
And then when I came up in school, I first started working for my uncle. He owned American Only in Tiles of Georgia. Because if we kind of go back in the history of the tile industry, tile contractors were the first distributors. Right. Because we really didn't have the wholesale route we have today.
And the family kind of divided into the whole. Kept the contracting side and then had the wholesale side.
And ultimately I would go back onto the contracting side because I like getting dirty and that. So. So and literally started in the industry in 1978, pulling tile orders. And you had to know all the trim pieces. Of course, tile was a very different world as far as what was a, you know, quarry tile wall, tile mosaics, that maybe there was a little bit of stone and. And that. That was about the extent of what the tile world was, at least in. In. In the Southeast, where in the area I was involved in it and came out.
My cousin would, they would sell. My uncle would sell. I would go to work with my cousin and the contracting. I was a journeyman tile setter when I was about the age of 17 and went on to keep in that area and then went to the University of Georgia and then came out and my cousin, by the time I'd go there, he would get into a company called Secure Georgia which is not Secures now. Ultimately got kind of I guess brought into custom building products. Would own them now or the areas of them. I don't think they may, they may have some brand recognition in some areas. But I'm not, I'm not not. But I'm not all aware of that.
That was an incredible training ground because I knew tile setting. I, I knew we spread thin set you know at the time but, but I didn't know the chemistry or the really the, the, the, the, the background of the assembly and how things went together. I just knew this is what I was taught and this is what I did.
[00:03:58] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:03:58] Speaker B: And then all of a sudden that chemistry opens up to you. And I had mentors like Lei Hightower who was that was their technical service manager for the United States for C CURE and who sat on ANSI and TCNA very for. You'd have to be older but very recognized in that and then would actually go on.
He would sell out. My cousin would sell out and I would go to work for the National Tile Contractors association and.
And I would be fired six months later.
That I say that in jest.
Too young didn't. Wasn't seasoned. I was, I was a very young, young guy. Yeah that and, and probably in my.
I guess I was 23, 24 at the time and that so, so that kind of.
And Joe Tarver would help me. I'd go to work for Matt Custom Building products would hire me away from. From. From pay. During my career I spent seven years as the east coast held heading up the east coast technical Services.
And you have to put it in perspective. This is 1989.
[00:05:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:13] Speaker B: This is.
Yeah. This is the things you know. But in all that path I would always be looking for mentors or people could teach me more.
Right. And I still do that to this day.
And and so that's kind of the.
I would start like a champion them and I'm a big believer. I started started out what we would call sole proprietor or bucket and trial guy just like anybody else did. It was just me. And then I would hire a helper and and and ultimately grow it from. I grew it.
In all in 2007 I was running almost 100 employees and no eight hits. And, and, and it was a. And that became.
I was fortunate not to get caught up into that.
And and then I would, I would rethink and reposition really where we were going to go.
And then in 2000 made a, made a hire in 2015. And I'm just, I'm kind of bullet pointing this real.
[00:06:23] Speaker A: Oh no, you're good, you're good, you're good.
[00:06:25] Speaker B: Yeah just stop me because I'm a long winded son.
[00:06:28] Speaker A: Oh, you're good.
[00:06:29] Speaker B: Anybody who knows I love it and that I make a bad hire.
We lost a helper who had been with us a long time. He was never, he was a great helper. He was never going to become a setter because he didn't like the responsibility.
We lost him out because of. He had some illness and couldn't come back. He ended up being okay. He ended up having a brain tumor. They removed it. He was okay. Yeah, he's, he's still, he's. We still talk to him and that. But he could never come back to work. Right. He went out on disability and we make a bad hire because we needed.
Instead of having an interview process and a cultural process and a process in which we did things, I just hired a guy and ultimately the Department of Labor would raid my offices and that over wage. Wage issues and that and with not a good way to lose weight but definitely awakening and it would be, it would be a great turning point. It would be a point that let me reevaluate everything we do, how we do it and which ultimately would lead to me going out to my first Total Solutions plus is what it was called at the time out out out in in the deserts Palm Desert I think is where that one was that year. And I think in part I was thinking well I'm just going to shut this thing down. I'm going to go find a job with, with the manufacturer again or something.
[00:08:06] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:08:08] Speaker B: Back in my head because I, I'm just, I'm tired of this.
[00:08:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:12] Speaker B: This.
We had a good business. I was just tired of having that. That side of it. And I was fortunate to meet other NTCA for those who don't know, National Tile Contractor association five star Contractors and Dan Lambert, the Lambert Tile out of out of Colorado was there at the time.
Dirk Sullivan Hawthorne Tile out of out of Washington. He's out of the Wash. Washington area.
[00:08:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:44] Speaker B: Oh, he's gonna kill me because Oregon Excuse Me or.
[00:08:47] Speaker A: Wow. Better get, better get that right.
Yep.
[00:08:53] Speaker B: And, and these. And I said it was just a, hey, these guys are like minded. These guys are facing the same things I'm facing these guys. And it was just, you know, because I think a lot of times we get out on our own island. Yeah. Especially if you're, if, if you're entrepreneur and you're business driven.
I think in a lot of ways you have a very maverick personality. Any way that you're going to, I think you have to, you have to have this kind of. I'm going to drive, I'm going to drive, I'm going to drive. Excellence. This is where we're going. I've got an idea.
And, and maybe you believe in yourself a little too much. And, and yeah, it gets you, get you in trouble. But, but it's, but I think you have to start that. But, but those guys and it, and it really was, you know, this goes back to probably 2016, 17, and that's where I really probably turned the leaf and said this is a business and I need to run it like a business and that. So, so I, cause I say you go through this, we kind of lean and go through this. You know, you start as a sole proprietor, you become a contractor at some point in that you're a contractor who becomes a businessman.
In other words. My duties today are highly different than what they were when I was setting tile.
[00:10:15] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:10:16] Speaker B: I honestly, I hope my customers aren't listening to this, but I couldn't tell you what jobs I'm doing or not doing right now. Right.
In the sense that, that where are we at in any particular day on any particular job? I'm aware, you know, Yeah, I can look at my. But at the same time, you know, now it's on Fridays, it's looking at all the whip reports, right. It's looking at, it's, it's looking at the financials, it's, it's, it's the insurance, it's bonding, it's all the other stuff. It's the contract reviews, you know, and, and it's developing those processes. So there, there's the business side of it right there. But I'm in the business of tile contracting and stone contracting and pedestals and slabs and that, that's the business I'm in.
I was a contractor who loved, much loved it. But at the heart of me, I'm still just a craftsman that loves the trade. Right. I still, I still love my trade.
[00:11:12] Speaker A: And
[00:11:15] Speaker B: truthfully, how I ended up in the Office was.
I went through it like I had a partner early on. It ended up being a bad decision because they really didn't bring anything to me.
And kind of like one of us needs to go in the office. And I went into the office.
I'd like to tell you, this is all like, I had this great vision.
[00:11:36] Speaker A: Epiphany.
[00:11:38] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Right. There's a. Right. There's literally two things that still hold very true to this day. Day. My initial business plan was simply, I can go out, do it per the standards, and make a living at it. That was my entire business. That. That. And. And then. Which became. Ultimately got my honed down to a tagline we keep to this day, which is craftsmanship by the standards and that.
So we're very. Standards thought. We think that way. We execute that way. We watch that. So. And I think part of that goes back to the background when I was dealing with technical services, as I saw all the problems, contractors and why were they having these problems? Right. It was because you were being brought in because this isn't bonding or this. And typically, I mean, it wasn't a product failure. It was a lot of things happening. It was. It was. Okay. The slab had overspray paint that wasn't properly prepped.
There were a lot of little things. And then. And then the coverage wasn't. Or contact, as we call it today, wasn't where it should be. Should be. Yeah, there was a lot of those things.
[00:12:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:54] Speaker B: And I just said, look, I think we can.
I think I can.
I have a very principled personality that I want to do it correctly. I want to make sure we're giving value to our. To our customer basis. And we built off of that. And the fact that we. My technical underpinning allowed us to go after bigger materials. And, you know, again, this is 1994. 95. 96. Right.
[00:13:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:23] Speaker B: Right.
Yeah. So. So somebody seen a 24 by 24 piece of travertine. That was unheard of.
Whoa.
[00:13:30] Speaker A: What is this?
[00:13:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And we wouldn't say no to it. We'd say, hey, we can figure this out.
[00:13:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:38] Speaker B: And we still. I think we. We, you know, if we look at what a pure tile contractor is, is there, it's. It's a person's ability to understand all the different materials, be it the tiniest glass mosaic to the largest gauge porcelain tile panel.
[00:13:56] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:13:57] Speaker B: Understand how to handle them, how to prep for them, how to put them into the environment and intended use in which they are under that from A to Z, manipulate them, put them in and get an aesthetically appealing job that's going to last in the environment. Yeah, that. And I and I and, and I think we, we, we like everything your industry is, you know. Oh, it's just a tool. Right. We all try to make everything.
[00:14:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:24] Speaker B: Commodity.
[00:14:24] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah.
[00:14:27] Speaker B: It's always. It's a. And it's not a commodity. It's anything but. It's a highly skilled profession.
[00:14:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:33] Speaker B: You know, I suspect in Yalls office y' all got CNC machines, mills and all the stuff that makes those tools. Oh, yeah. And that.
[00:14:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:43] Speaker B: I couldn't tell you how to run a cnc. We sure do tell you how to run.
[00:14:46] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:14:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:47] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:14:48] Speaker B: But there's, there's skilled technicians y' all hire who are highly educated in what they do. And, and I think my goal always is to show respect for everybody in that, that, that whole, that whole process.
[00:15:01] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, that's awesome.
That's cool.
[00:15:04] Speaker B: And I demand it and I demand it out of my customers. Yeah, you're going to respect.
Understand then you aren't a customer. It doesn't fit. We're not a fit.
[00:15:14] Speaker A: Yeah, totally.
Absolutely.
[00:15:17] Speaker B: And if you understand that, then you understand the added value of why we own your tools, why we, why we're right.
[00:15:25] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. It all works hand in hand. It has to. And it's to that point where it takes skilled people in different fields to actually get what you need where you're at.
So if someone's saying, oh, I want to lay down 48 by 48 tiles. Okay, cool. Well, you need tile. You need the tool to fit it. You need the man to have the skill to do it. You need to make sure that when he muds the back of that, that it's done right and it's done professionally. Well, that actually starts before him. Is the subfloor right? Is it level?
Does he have to take a level?
There is a lot of skill involved that sadly the customer goes, well, I'll just get the cheapest guy to do it. And you're like, oh my goodness, why are you doing this?
And sadly, that's the days we live in where skill and that is being diminished. And it's speed and cost and you're going nice things cost money throughout time. That's always been the way of it.
If it looks cheap and it is cheap, it is cheap. Okay. And something will happen with it very quickly. We have a lot of people who sadly copy our products and bring them in from foreign countries and we use aircraft grade aluminum people Go.
[00:16:46] Speaker B: Huh?
[00:16:47] Speaker A: Yeah. When you've got a thousand pound slab on a stone, you do not want that slab to move any direction, let alone the cart give out underneath it and some poor fellas lying underneath that slab.
But sadly, people don't get that. They just look at the bottom figure and away they go. And it's, it's really. It can be frustrating sometimes, but we just persevere on. We just persevere on. Well, we're, we're about 20 minutes in, and that was the first question. So, you know, listen, this could be the longest podcast on record. No, I'm just kidding. We kind of.
I'm just joking with you, Woody. It's awesome. We kind of answered the next question a little bit. But I want to kind of ask you, like, you've had a long career.
What in the world has kept you going enough to stick through it and to stay where you are? Because these days, people, you know, after a month or two, they don't like it, they move on. Like, for you, what's made you stick in this industry as long as you have?
[00:17:52] Speaker B: I'll tell. I'll tell you the joke. I'll tell you the joke side first and then we'll get serious.
When you get tired, I used to say I'm. I'm too poor to quit and I'm too tired to care.
That was.
And that the people.
Okay. Because if I, If I look at my life and, and it won't be.
If you say legacy, if you will. I don't. I really don't want to. You know, I mean, Merv, I've won. I've been fortunate to, you know, I'm.
I've received probably every accolade in the tile industry from the contracting side, you know, I'm a ring on a recipient.
I won the first Ceramic Tile Education Foundation. I won the first Dan Hickok Award, you know, that. For service to them.
And, and that's not. That's not. What was driving was the people. Right. It was.
And I'll. It won't be how much good tile or stone we put in. And we will. And we'll continue to.
It will be the people in my life that I've had the opportunity to work with, work for, and how did I influence them and the way I presented myself and handled myself throughout my life. And I think that keeps me driven more. More than anything. It's not about the stuff.
It's not about best life now.
[00:19:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:25] Speaker B: It's not about money. And that, that never drove me anyway.
It was always about treating people and, and, and, and, and just loving people the way I wanted to be loved in every aspect of what we're doing.
[00:19:45] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:19:46] Speaker B: And I don't.
Because, you know, if, if, if, if I hope not, but if, you know, if I get.
If I die in a car accident this evening, you know, and that there'll be somebody else in my seat and, and, and, you know, six weeks from now, people will say, well, he was a good guy. A year from now, nobody will even remember me. Right. That, that's, that in that. But if, but if we set the standard and, and gave people the opportunity to grow and all that, they may not remember a name, but I think the true legacy is they're going to keep doing the right thing even when I'm not around.
[00:20:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:25] Speaker B: Right. And if I, if I. So I don't want, you know, that that's a hard thing.
And that's probably why I'm more involved now on the other side. You know what one I'm in.
We got our company to a way where it was financially capable of giving the time back to the National Title Contractor association, to the Ceramic Tile Education foundation, to ansi, to tcna, being being involved in those aspects of the industry.
But we always have to realize I'm just a steward of it right now.
Right.
[00:21:00] Speaker A: Totally.
[00:21:02] Speaker B: Right.
I've got this little time to influence and I'm just distorted of the industry and. But, but I'm. I don't forget, you know, I'm standing on the shoulders of guys that came before me.
[00:21:14] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:21:15] Speaker B: Hightower.
Bobby White, who, who I worked for when I first started my business. Bobby White was a powerhouse contractor here in Atlanta. And Bobby was so busy. Said, woody, I need you to go handle these builders for me, and I'm going to pay you every penny I have in that job.
And that. He wasn't broker me. He just wanted to service his customers. And Bobby knew two things about me. A, I would do a good job because he taught me how to do a good job, and B, I wasn't going to take his customer because I had too much respect for who he was.
[00:21:50] Speaker A: That's awesome.
[00:21:51] Speaker B: I wasn't. Yeah. And that.
And, and ultimately some of those customers Bobby would give me. And this is. When I'm a young. This is a young guy. I was a young guy looking for business. Right. And, and, and, and I think a lot of young contractors come up, look at it as, instead of, instead of being so competitive, if they get engaged with their local community of tile contractors that we Only have so much capacity. Yep. Right. And if I know you're a good, and if I know you're a good contractor who's following standards and I know you as a person, I'm going to recommend you.
[00:22:32] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:22:32] Speaker B: And that. So yep, you're, you're looking at, you're looking for business out there through whatever part.
Well, you know, you're missing a whole opportunity of the contractors networking with each other. But, but it's become such a, that the industries a lot of times become such a backstabbing, you know, kind of broke industry.
You know, they're their jobs. We get that we have and, and other guys that we call each other and said, hey, here's a project. Yeah. You know, because we understand.
I've got 11 crews. I know what my, I know what my value. I know dollar and cents what I can do in a year and that and be profitable. I know in that we're, we're probably running, you know, I, I, this is hit, we probably are running about a 12 month backlog, but it will, it's not clean.
[00:23:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:25] Speaker B: In other words, we're not gonna, everything's not going to line up. You know, I don't want, yeah, that, that, that's not, I'm not going to let anybody think I'm in fantasy line. It's not. We're going to end up with pockets that we're going to be looking for work.
[00:23:36] Speaker A: Yep. Oh yeah.
[00:23:37] Speaker B: And that, Yep. Yeah, we might have a good backlog, but that doesn't mean it's going to come to us.
[00:23:42] Speaker A: No, definitely not. Absolutely not. It's so, it's so true when you say that we are stewards because we're stewards off our time, off our money, off our resources that has been given to us, granted to us. And you know, I always, you talk about mentors. I had a mentor when I was younger. His name is Eric Watterson. I began to work for him when I was what, 14 at a hardware store.
And he always reminded me As a young 14 year old boy that you are only a dash on a headboard on a headstone. Sorry, so you're a deity here. A dash and a date and that dash, that's it, that's all you've got.
So you know, do unto others as they would do unto you. And like to your point, there could come a time where things are slow and you could call a mate and say, hey, have you got any work?
And you have that relationship where he goes, you know what, I'm slammed Here, have it. And what a blessing that is. But that, sadly, is with the younger generation.
It's not their mindset. And then they wonder why there's arguments. They wonder why there's not the camaraderie there used to be.
Like, I love going to those events, those training events, and seeing like the, the training guys together, the, the sort of camaraderie they have and the fun time they have. And then you look at some of the young fellas that are sitting learning, and you're going, guys, lighten up. It's okay. Like, it'll be. It'll be all right.
But they just, they worry, they panic. And it's.
Personally, I think it's media influence that could be. You know, everyone has their own opinion, but when all you hear is negative, it has an effect of turning you into a negative Nancy. Whereas we've got to fight that with everything we've got and be like, look, there's enough work out there for everybody.
You don't have to be the greedy hog that keeps it all and actually gets nothing done because your customers get annoyed and move on somewhere else anyway, so.
[00:25:48] Speaker B: That's right. Yeah, that's right.
[00:25:49] Speaker A: That's just my take on it.
[00:25:51] Speaker B: No, no, I think you're right.
Your deal outside of LinkedIn, which is. Which. Which is a. Which where you kind of first came across me.
[00:26:01] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:26:01] Speaker B: Which is a professional network. Right. And that, that is the only social media we're on. And we don't, we don't. Now we're working on some stuff because. And it's not going to be me because. Because that ship sell my, My generation. Yeah, I'm, you know that.
[00:26:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:26:21] Speaker B: Look, I've got, I got to get the young girls. Some of the, Some of the. I should. Young women.
[00:26:26] Speaker A: Women.
[00:26:26] Speaker B: And I say young only because they're younger than I am. Some of the. I have to get them to get me onto this because I don't know how to get onto this.
[00:26:33] Speaker A: Right.
[00:26:35] Speaker B: So that's funny. So I have. So they have to help me work through that.
And they're very patient with me because, you know, I still. You kind of see behind me the drafting board. I still draft by hand.
[00:26:52] Speaker A: Wow.
Wow.
[00:26:54] Speaker B: I don't, I don't. Because I can draft out a detail quicker and scan it in than I can try to do.
[00:27:00] Speaker A: Yep, there you go.
[00:27:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I never learned that. And, and never. And, and so I just adapt to, to. But at the same time, I'm not scared of technology. I'm. I'm sitting in a, A Conversation with a bot I build through AI on a marketing campaign.
[00:27:18] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:27:19] Speaker B: Right. So. So it's an ongoing conversation on. On a product, or I should. When I say product, I mean service. Yes.
That. On a service that we're getting. We're. We're going to break.
We're subdividing out of our. Of our regular services. And I don't know how.
I think AI is a great tool so that I can have those conversations with the marketing firm we've hired, because I know what I want to see. I don't know how to tell them what I want to see.
[00:27:50] Speaker A: Yeah, Yep, absolutely.
[00:27:54] Speaker B: So I think that tool is there, so I'm not opposed to it, but also have just decided certain things at this point. I'm just.
I've got. I've got a great person that does shop drawings for me.
She does the math.
I. I tell. We literally get on Zoom and I go, okay, here's what I need. Here's. And then I'll draw it out and throw it to her and she chads it up.
Yeah. So I think you adapt. I think that that's the other thing. I adapt, Yep. I keep adapting to it and that I don't.
The digital world's not to my strength, so I just kind of.
I hate emails personally, but, you know, I live in them like you do.
[00:28:38] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah.
[00:28:41] Speaker B: And I think it's easier to pick up the phone and you can get
[00:28:44] Speaker A: a lot more calls, a lot more done big time. And there's. There's no.
What did they mean by that? Like, there's no tone in an email. You can read an email three different ways that says exactly the same thing. And it's like, oh, gee, what's going on here? But anyways, hey, next question.
Growth within a company, obviously, for a lot of people, Covid people grew exponentially. And some people actually are no longer with us. Their businesses kind of dissolve. But why do you believe, like, growing naturally beats sort of that forced growth, especially in the trades?
[00:29:25] Speaker B: Right.
Really good question. And I know we do not sit down when we're creating budgets every year. And we create budgets. Right.
But we're doing that more on the expense side, not the sales side. And that because we think in more terms of efficiencies than we do
[00:29:48] Speaker A: in
[00:29:48] Speaker B: essence, if we don't buy it, if we can't pay for it.
[00:29:52] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:29:52] Speaker B: So that's. That's number one. In other words, if we need a new truck in the fleet, if we can't write the check, for it. It doesn't get purchased. Okay. And that we. Okay.
[00:30:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:02] Speaker B: So we're very protective. We're extremely protective of our cash flow and our operating capital and that from, from a business standpoint, that's not to say that we wouldn't like. It's interesting. You can go out and get a better price on a truck when you finance it, then you pay cash for it because they're getting a kickback.
[00:30:24] Speaker A: They are getting.
[00:30:25] Speaker B: So we'll make that.
Yeah, we'll make that deal on the front side. But then we just pay it off as soon as we get the first.
[00:30:32] Speaker A: There you go. Boom. Done. Yep.
[00:30:34] Speaker B: Finished. So. So, so I'm not going to tell you we won't negotiate between the lines. We'll do that. Yeah, but, but, but. And I say that because if you, you know, expenses, revenue drives profit, gets you things and you have to be profitable.
[00:30:48] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:30:49] Speaker B: So we're much more. We're more concerned about the profitability than we are about the growth and that we more worried about we're going to fit in these projects correctly than we are about. Go. Just, just going after work. Yeah. And that so. And that so, so we don't think in terms of growth needs to be organic and natural because again, I would, I would say this, Merv, don't let my Southern fool you that I don't know my numbers.
[00:31:19] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:31:20] Speaker B: And I think it's a.
And that I think it's a mistake that young contractors or contractors make as they're moving. If you don't know your numbers, how do you even know to grow?
[00:31:32] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:31:33] Speaker B: Right.
And that. And, and that's not just me.
[00:31:36] Speaker A: So.
[00:31:37] Speaker B: So in full transparency, there's a company here who is my accounting firm and, and business. And they're also business consulting firms and that called Large and Gilbert. So I'll give a shout out to them, although that their customers, every one of their customers are subcontractors.
[00:32:00] Speaker A: Oh wow.
[00:32:01] Speaker B: So they. So they specialize in the subcontract construction business.
[00:32:06] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:32:07] Speaker B: And I pay them to close my books out hard quarterly.
We spend a day with them going through all the numbers.
[00:32:15] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:32:16] Speaker B: And that. And that. So. So if you. And I would say the biggest mistake I made coming out as a sole proprietor contractor is not understanding that how much does it cost me to put something in? How much? What are my cost of goods sold? What's my overhead costs? What are all these things? And if. And the beautiful thing is you don't know today AI can help you out way more than not. Right. There's ways of.
You've got to weed through the. Weed through the. You know, wade through the weeds a little bit. But, but.
And if so. So if your focus would say hey, here's where I want to go. Well if you don't roadmap that today, I think you can get in that because I'm not giving a man a price or a person a price based on what I'm guessing I'm getting it on a price because I'm driving to a net profit all the time.
[00:33:09] Speaker A: You go boom.
[00:33:13] Speaker B: You know and that. And if I have to deal within that negotiation, then I know where my. I know. I know where the lines are. I know where I can go or can't go. Yeah but, but we. Every job I review, I review every bid we put out with. With the project managers. I still do this day because I like to do. I does my experience. It's not that they aren't great at what they do. It's if. If my. My experience sees things and plans that aren't there.
[00:33:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
Totally.
[00:33:44] Speaker B: Okay. And that. And that's not that I'm smarter than anybody. That's just. I've lived a longer life.
[00:33:50] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:33:51] Speaker B: Right. That's that. That, that I'm not. I don't have some magic here. Somebody else that. That hopefully is watching. This doesn't have. Because my encouragement is get the mentors know that you don't.
I don't even know what I don't know right now. I'm always trying to learn something good and I'm always looking. Sometimes it take the time to study what you're. You know, don't. I don't trust AI on the sense of. I think it's coming but. But I don't think AI you got to think where the technology's gone too. I know we're kind of off subject here but. But think about. We don't get two to many. These guys. Architects are building plan sets and revit. Right. They're. They're building models.
[00:34:31] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:34:32] Speaker B: And that they aren't. But they aren't sending you the model.
[00:34:35] Speaker A: Nope.
[00:34:35] Speaker B: They're sending you the two dimensional of it.
[00:34:37] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:34:38] Speaker B: And sometimes the model cheats. I remember looking at set of plans here recently and I'm going there's something there that I can't see and was able to. Yeah. And I was able to get into a zoom meeting with the architect and say what is there? We're not catching that. He spins the model. Oh yeah. There's top. Okay.
[00:34:56] Speaker A: Well thanks for telling me that yeah,
[00:34:59] Speaker B: right, right, right, right, right. And so I still review that. But, but, but we have a spreadsheet and spreadsheets we've built that are extremely sophisticated and they live as. Literally gives us go, no go projects.
[00:35:13] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:35:14] Speaker B: So, so if we don't see where we want to be or if it doesn't make sense or if we don't. And we have a feeling whether that, so that that's one side of it. And then, then because of the level we work on on the residential, those, Those projects that might necessarily never be.
Those are on a level of, of reputation, expertise and what you can do. And so those clients aren't as. Aren't budget sensitive. It's. Can you do this? Yeah, right. So, so, so you have to have the technical side. It says, yeah, we can, we can do all this crazy. Right. And work through this side. So, so there's both sides of that to my business that we're, we're doing it and then we're. And then the other side I'll. And that is. You kind of see it right over my shoulder that I'm pointing at. That has become. Those are pedestals, elevated decks that have become a big part of our business. We've been pioneering that for about the last eight years. Yeah, that's that. And we look at it as a product group as opposed to just a service.
[00:36:14] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:36:15] Speaker B: And, and we, and we're. We. We think we've got.
I think until that becomes a commodity, I think we have a few years to capitalize because we're the front runners in it.
[00:36:24] Speaker A: So that's awesome.
[00:36:26] Speaker B: So.
And then we were down at IBS last, last week down in Orlando. Yeah, my entire purpose of going. I had, I did have some meetings that I'm. And that. But my product. I'm looking for new product services we can offer as a contract.
[00:36:42] Speaker A: Yep, that's helpful. So, so going. Kind of going back to the whole profit.
If there's any sort of listeners that are, you know, listening to this, is there any resources. I know you have your own firm that you go to, but is there any like podcasts you listen to or books that you've read or any. Anything that might help even a young listener on here?
[00:37:06] Speaker B: Yeah, there's a lady called, named Diane Gilson out of Michigan called Know your numbers.
I follow, I follow her and she does some podcasting, but she really. And, and early on I subscribed. She, she, she. She's an accountant that made her money by giving you spreadsheets and selling or selling You Spreadsheets.
[00:37:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:25] Speaker B: And. And at a very like. I think one of the best spreadsheets I ever bought back from her was it. It may cost a little more, but I think I probably paid 200, $250 for it. Right.
[00:37:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:36] Speaker B: And it was. And it broke down every single part of what an employee cost you.
[00:37:42] Speaker A: Wow. Yep.
[00:37:43] Speaker B: So important that everything from the shirts we provide to them to the PPs, to their vacation time to the. All this stuff. And it helped me see deeper. And, and then I, I constantly, you know, I, I wish I remember her name. I had a 9th grade high school teacher says if you ever want to learn anything, learn the vocabulary.
Right. And so there's an accounting for debits on credits are not what you think they are. Right.
In accounting world, you know, you know, cash versus accrual county, you know, understand learning those vocabulary, how cost of good soul work, how it rotates through. I think that there's so much information more than what it was there when. When I had to learn through making mistakes.
Today I try to do a little less of that.
[00:38:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Hopefully so.
Oh, that's funny. Good stuff. Well, you kind of mentioned a quickbook. Sorry, go ahead.
[00:38:40] Speaker B: Quickbook. It was just a glorified checkbook when I started.
[00:38:43] Speaker A: There you go.
Yeah. There's a lot more in it than just that. For sure.
[00:38:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:48] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. There's a lot of good reports you can pull out of it.
[00:38:52] Speaker B: Well, I think the other side of it is though, Mer, if, you know, we had to go back because we didn't know we set our item list and chart of accounts wrong.
[00:39:01] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:39:02] Speaker B: Right. So we had to. If you, if you don't. Because I didn't know the vocabulary, how can you understand that? And then, and then we're taking that data and we're exporting it into enterprise. Quick Enterprise is a good. Is a pretty good product. It run. It works fine for us.
[00:39:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:21] Speaker B: There's some other software. I've got a graveyard full of software. I think we all do.
[00:39:25] Speaker A: Oh yeah.
Yep.
[00:39:27] Speaker B: Yeah. And.
But I think I like, you know, we ultimately just had to create custom stuff that we could export out of QuickBooks into spreadsheets because we never could find. You know, the way we estimate doesn't work for actuals versus estimated in QuickBooks. So we had to create custom whip reports that we export labor and all that back out of. Out of it into our own whip report. We never could get. We. And we're constantly looking to look, that's a big project. I'm in Right now is how we can get better at that.
And that's what's important to me right now. I want to know now there's a reason because the long play is, is it's interesting. When I hired Large and Gilbert, I, they would be doing this and I said, well, that job probably netted around this and, and, and, and it was a good job. And they would do the accounting on it and says, you're right. How do you know that? And I'd go, well, it's, it's my redneck math.
[00:40:31] Speaker A: There you go. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
[00:40:34] Speaker B: But part of that was this was my baby and I understood what it took to do something. And so there's an intuitive side and I think that's great for a sole proprietor. Well, you did.
But, but I don't think that's.
And if that's where you want to be and that's what you want to do, I'm going to support you there right in that. But, but, but I think ultimately, for instance, today my 2026 taxes were placed, planned for in 2020, October of 25.
[00:41:07] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:41:10] Speaker B: That's how far we're projecting and thinking in that. And then we're architecturing or orchestrating the entire year of how we're revenue is going to push and how everything's going to do and what we've got in backlog and what we can see historical and then that.
It doesn't mean it's going to land perfect, but it is very much trying to be predictable and that very much think in those ways. And that allows me to be stress free because I don't want this, I don't want that. I won't know this is going to happen.
[00:41:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:40] Speaker B: But I'm trying to keep as much of that as I can get.
[00:41:43] Speaker A: Absolutely. Very smart. See, this is why you listen to these podcasts, wealth of knowledge, why they're here. But another question I'm going to throw at you is you kind of talked earlier on about having a mentor that men poured into you.
Is there any lessons from those men that kind of still guide you and like how you, you know, do business today?
Whatever. Fill in the blank.
[00:42:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Bobby White. When I told Bobby White I was going out, I was going to leave, leave custom and go to work business for business for myself. He had two, two things that I hold to this day. He goes, first thing you said to me is you learn real quick when it's your money you're losing.
So that's the first one he told me. Yeah. The Second thing he taught me is once you complete that job, never be scared to ask for your money. Y. You didn't beg it. You didn't borrow it. You earned it. And if somebody's not paying you, don't ever be scared to go knock on that door and say, you owe me money.
[00:42:43] Speaker A: Where's my money?
[00:42:44] Speaker B: Yeah, where's my money? And. And. And you don't have to be rude about it in that You. You just. And I always have taken the business. This follows two that I probably pulled from him.
I want to know that we did our best and it can. And. And that. That we earned what we're asking for.
Right. Yeah. I want to. I want. That's. That's.
I want my conscience always to be clean. Right. And that. That we didn't. We didn't sidestep anything. We did. That we did. We went out there and gave them. We did the right thing.
And that, you know, when nobody was looking, nobody understood. We still did the right thing.
[00:43:25] Speaker A: And.
[00:43:25] Speaker B: And that. That's. That. That. That guides me. That. That was probably.
And then my cousin early on had told me, you can stay small and keep it all or you can grow it and manage it.
[00:43:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:43:41] Speaker B: And that. So that's something. So. And. But you cannot do both.
[00:43:44] Speaker A: No.
[00:43:45] Speaker B: Right.
You've got to start building people. And that. So that was something that still sticks with me to this day. Cool.
Those are things that. And then the other mentors were more technical mentors that definitely stick with me. They wouldn't necessarily be a saying, but they're going to be a way. I'm looking at a project and how we're going to construct.
[00:44:08] Speaker A: Yep. Totally. So taking that mentor approach, like people poured into you, and obviously the natural effect is then you pour into others.
How do you approach that? Because it's different days we live in. You've got a new employee. You know, how do you approach that? Mentoring for that younger person, even in today's society.
[00:44:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
Interesting. We had a new employee. We just hired a young man who's 17 years old.
He. I don't interview him.
I didn't hire him.
[00:44:40] Speaker A: Huh.
[00:44:42] Speaker B: And that. He. When they come in, once we hire them, they spend a few days here in the office doing nothing but safety training.
[00:44:51] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:44:52] Speaker B: And vocabulary training. Okay. So. So. And that. So he was at my office yesterday. And the biggest thing.
And starting that. So here's somebody I'm starting with. Right. And that. The. The biggest. The. The. There was only two things I wanted to get across to him yesterday. A.
Most importantly, I want you to be safe and that. And you have the autonomy to stop anything you're doing. And you will never get in trouble for stopping if you don't feel safe in that activity.
That we're in a trade that has hazards and we want you to know if you don't know, we want to train you to know if you don't haven't been trained, you don't do it right. So that's, that's the first thing. And this. But, but out of that becomes the second thing which is really what I want them to get out of it is I care about you.
You aren't a number on a page. You aren't a production level to me. And that those are all truths.
I'm not going to say that they are from a business standpoint. But the more important thing is you are a human being that I care about and you have entered under my, my, under my, under my authority. And you need to know my most important thing in my mind is you.
[00:46:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:46:05] Speaker B: And that. And that. So, and we're going to work it like that because why I, I'm. Why I'm going to be here at 8 o' clock tonight running a number or looking at something so that they're working next week or the week after or month now.
[00:46:17] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's.
[00:46:19] Speaker B: So those are.
Right.
[00:46:21] Speaker A: That's awesome.
[00:46:22] Speaker B: And you know, early on it when this is years ago, the, the employees got paid, the vendors got paid and what was left over I would make.
[00:46:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:46:34] Speaker B: And that and, and that and, and, and, and that's always going to be the way now we're in a, we've, we've over these 30 years we've built, you know, built a nest egg so we don't have to worry about those things so much.
[00:46:48] Speaker A: Correct. Yep. That's good.
[00:46:50] Speaker B: But, but I still in the back of my mind that's always the way it's going to go and that's the way I'm going to run a business. It's.
Maybe I'm a unicorn.
I don't really care, but it works.
But, but what you go when I early on in my career in that I'm going to be the best, biggest, you know, badass as people would say today.
Tile contractor in the state of Georgia.
Yeah. Well, no, no, that's not what I'm going that, you know, there's, there's a, there's a cockiness that I learned.
No, because you know, and if you look at it even nationally, right from the. Because I see it on the national level today. And. And that there are some really great sole proprietors doing some insane work out there. Right. And there's. And there's. And there's some companies that you're never going to hear about or see are never going to be on a podcast or never. That, that, that you better believe. I know who they are.
[00:47:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:47:52] Speaker B: And I'm watching them because. Because. And I'm learning from them. Right. In that.
In that they were my competition. Who was also a. A fellow tile contractor. I was watching them.
[00:48:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:48:06] Speaker B: And that there. There was a contractor. He's retired now. His name was Rob Holloway here in Atlanta, Georgia. And Rob had a business and early on he adopted that. He went to the Kitchen Bath Studios to find business.
[00:48:19] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:48:20] Speaker B: He didn't. He was. And he was doing there and he became a fabricator and he did. Had a great run.
You know, he's retired now, but. But. But had a great, great run. But. But what? Say what you want to one way or the other, people know. But. But the reality is the man had had a vision and saw something. And I watched and I said, well, okay, if I get to know these designers, then maybe I could get. Get. So. So we were open to other avenues of looking at the. At who the customer really was. So. So. So I would tell you today that in the homes we're working in, I probably am not going to meet the homeowner and that I probably will never interface with them in the project.
One, partly because of the position I am, but partly because we're dealing with design teams and different people.
[00:49:11] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:49:12] Speaker B: And that. I hate that because I think. I think I call it. We're still in the decade of the designer. And I don't mean that because I'm not creative. I can't come up with how these colors interface and all that. But the other standpoint, I wish the design teams would rely on the contractors because we can help them from making mistakes during the design development phase.
[00:49:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:49:33] Speaker B: Of a project because we're the guys that understand the materials where they can be used successfully. And I think we've been kind of pushed out to the side a little. I don't want to make a blanket statement, but we used to sit in every design selection meeting with tile and help them go through that process. And we've kind of been. Been.
And I would say that to the young design designers that hopefully they might see this. That, hey, we're here to help.
Right. We're. Our expertise is subject matter expertise. But. But we are experts in that. And we really are here.
I'll tell a designer. Look, I don't care if it's my job or not. I'd rather that you called me. Let me. Let me cut through the. The propaganda out there. You know, the tile is a beautiful tile, but it doesn't belong in a steam shower.
[00:50:25] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:50:26] Speaker B: You know, so.
And that right there's your tip of the day.
[00:50:30] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:50:31] Speaker B: Boom.
[00:50:32] Speaker A: You heard it here first. Get that hashtag. Well, you kind of talked about that young fella joining you. He's 17.
He's a newbie.
Are there any skills, any traits that you think a new Tyler or an installer that they need to learn early if they want to kind of have a long career in this industry?
[00:50:51] Speaker B: Well, I would hope they learn to raise a tape measure. Right.
You'd be surprised, them coming out of school. They don't.
[00:50:59] Speaker A: Oh, I'm not surprised. It's the same here, my friend. We have a machine shop and thankfully, the people we have. But when you. When you interview people and you say, hey, can you. What is that on a tape measure? And they look at you, you're going, yeah, this. This job maybe isn't just for you.
[00:51:16] Speaker B: Right, right. And we want the guys to know both sides. We want them to know metric.
[00:51:22] Speaker A: And imperial.
[00:51:23] Speaker B: And imperial, yeah. Because we. Because that's the industry we're in and it takes a discipline for them. Okay. If we're going. If we're working in metric, we're going to think metric. Quit. Don't try to bring it.
That's the hard part for all of us because we grew up in. Period.
[00:51:38] Speaker A: Right.
[00:51:39] Speaker B: Think metric. Don't think, don't think. Don't go. Don't try to convert it. Because I don't know what 27, 30 seconds is, you know, exactly.
On a tape measure. Because I probably don't have a tape measure. It's going down to the 30 seconds to begin with.
[00:51:53] Speaker A: Totally.
[00:51:54] Speaker B: But I can capture that. And I can capture that in metric. Right. I can capture that. That. That level of in metric. So, you know, the other thing you. Look, we're even mentor my guys. Look, the vice president of production, I'm still mentoring him.
Right. And that. He says I am. I don't think I am. I think he's smarter than I am. But, you know, we. I took him down to IBS with me last week. Week. And that my project managers, when I'm in a meeting, I want them in there. And then when I get out of the meeting, I will sit there and do you know why I said this?
[00:52:32] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:52:33] Speaker B: I'm very consciousness. I'm very conscious of what I'm doing. So I want them. Okay. And then I'm asking them questions. What did you pull out? I'm recapping it with them. And then, because everything I do, and I think this is a personality defect, is, is everything I do is. I want to be able to explain to you why I'm doing it.
It's not, it's not an opinion I want to. I'm backing it up with either experience or, or documents I can point to.
[00:53:07] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:53:09] Speaker B: And it's, and it's not the sense that I'm trying to argue with somebody. It's just. I want to be certain.
[00:53:16] Speaker A: Correct. Yep. You want to know big time. Well, switching gears a little bit, we're going to talk now about the ntca.
[00:53:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:53:23] Speaker A: You're heavily involved in it. Obviously you're in the, in the upper echelon, shall we say. But if you could kind of summarize, what value does the NDCA bring to contractors and installers that they maybe don't realize firsthand?
[00:53:42] Speaker B: Right. I think, you know, the, the mission of the NTCA is very simple. Education. Right. So, so it's, it's standard education to the. And this year I think the NTCA will do around 400 workshops nationwide. So. So that's where our, the funds that are coming in. That's where the funds go.
[00:54:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:54:01] Speaker B: Right.
[00:54:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:54:01] Speaker B: And then we represent.
And then the, and then we represent, you know, in the, in the technical committees and in the standard committees, we represent labor, where one aspect of union there's another. Right. There's different as aspects to stakeholders of that, but we're one of it. I feel like we do a good job as leadership because we do the work. But, but, but the question really beyond that's what our mission is. The real question and the real value is in the last word of it, the national title Contractor association and being associated with other contractors.
That's where you're learning and that's what we want. So, so, so joining it. Great. It's a great placard you can have on your email. Good. It means something because of the work being done.
[00:54:48] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:54:48] Speaker B: But the real value of it is the involvement because I don't care if you're a guy who sets tile for himself. If you come up to me and that, I'm gonna give you all the time you want.
[00:55:01] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:55:02] Speaker B: Yeah. And that. And you know what? There were guys who were.
That are a lot bigger Than I am contractors here in the United States. You, you know them. And I'm not going to name drop, but in that. You know what? Those guys give me time.
[00:55:17] Speaker A: Huh?
[00:55:17] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah. Because. Because I don't know necessarily how to negotiate a commercial contract or something. But you know what? Those guys, because of the association they do, I can call them up and here's what I'm facing.
I don't have experience here.
[00:55:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:55:36] Speaker B: Or knowledge. Can you help give me some pointers on this? And those guys.
Right.
[00:55:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:55:41] Speaker B: Right.
And, and, and, and that's only going to happen when people. When, when as far as that. Me talking them. Because they trust me. They know who I am.
They know that I'm a good actor in the market.
[00:55:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:55:56] Speaker B: Right. And that you're not going to just do that for some guy who's labor broker and out there you go, you know.
[00:56:02] Speaker A: Yeah, totally.
[00:56:04] Speaker B: Right. I think the industry look at, you know, if you think about it kind of historically in the tile industry, the Italian craftsman or the European craftsman from all over Europe comes into America. Right. These, these are really the first generation, you know, tile setters in, in the American market. Well, they, they did a disservice because they were very protective of the. Of, of the information.
[00:56:28] Speaker A: Right.
[00:56:29] Speaker B: They oh, I'm not going to teach you that trade that trick because I might lose.
[00:56:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:56:35] Speaker B: Right. And I think that's the wrong.
There are not enough tile setters out out here. But to. To even make the demand, we're going to look between the aging out. If you look out the future, we need more people to come into the industry. And you know, I think.
And, and, but we need them to learn that mentorship is. If you come to work for me and you learn to learn the trade and you're. And, and I see that in you and I see that entrepreneurial side in there and that. And you come to me and say, hey, I want to go try this for myself. I'm going to help you.
[00:57:11] Speaker A: Yeah. For sure.
[00:57:12] Speaker B: Am I going to that and that I'm going to teach you. I'm going to mentor you in the business side of it. Because that. But, but you had to earn that. Right.
Right. It coming to work for me six months and saying I'm gonna go in tile business. I'm what we call runaway help. Yeah. There you go.
All you're gonna do is hurt the marketplace and, and, and, and you're gonna run after.
You don't know your own value. You don't know what the math really is. And, and you're probably.
If you don't dig, hopefully you don't dig a hole so deep with the IRS or something that, that, that you can't get out of it. Yeah. And.
Yeah. Right. Because typically what happens like, like is okay, don't pay my taxes now. Oh, you know.
[00:57:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:57:56] Speaker B: I remember like two years in, I owed $11,000 to work comp. Because I didn't know I was supposed to.
[00:58:01] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:58:01] Speaker B: Because I underestimated.
[00:58:02] Speaker A: There you go. Yep.
[00:58:04] Speaker B: Which took me another three years to pay off early on in my career. Yeah.
[00:58:09] Speaker A: Oh, man, that's good. Well, if, if somebody's listening, perhaps they're, they're not a member.
You know, if they're on the fence, they're like, you know, why would I, why. You know, what's the benefits?
[00:58:21] Speaker B: Right.
[00:58:22] Speaker A: What would you, what, what advice would you give them?
[00:58:26] Speaker B: What I think, you know, we, we're asking this to our inside the executive committee right now. You know, why? Why? Where, why?
How can we communicate the added value? Right. Besides the association, if, if you just look at it from a direct dollar to dollar cost, if you join the association, you're getting like, like $8,000 worth of vouchers.
[00:58:52] Speaker A: Yeah. It's crazy.
[00:58:52] Speaker B: You get to use. Right, Right.
[00:58:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:58:54] Speaker B: Right. Because our partnership with success with companies like yourself and all that. Right.
[00:58:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:59:00] Speaker B: But the reality is I also get access to you. Right. Through the association. The ad value is the networking into, into, into the marketplace that that allows you. And you know, when I became a five star contractor, I'm the only residential. There's two of us in Atlanta. We want more. And that it's a huge commitment on the company's standpoint because you have to have so many certified tile installers.
You have to have the management in place. It's a big commitment. Right.
It's never gotten me a job.
[00:59:35] Speaker A: No.
[00:59:37] Speaker B: It's never gotten me the first job. And so that's why you're doing it. That's the wrong motivation. What it did do is create a culture in my company.
[00:59:43] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:59:46] Speaker B: And if you don't understand, if you, if and, and you've got to start looking at you. You cannot always look at the monetary benefit of something.
You've got to look at it more about what it, it's, it, it's, it's got. Look, if all this is about money, then I'm in the wrong business big time.
[01:00:05] Speaker A: So am I. We may as well turn the lights out and go home now. Big time.
[01:00:10] Speaker B: And that if that's what. No, it's about The. It's about people. I do work for people. I work with people in that. It's about how I'm treating those people, how I influence those people. How do I influence that young guy and said I'm your biggest cheerleader. I want you to succeed. I want you to. I want. You. Want you to prosper. That prosperity may not be how many dollars I have in the bank. It's going to. Because of that you're never going to be happy because you're never going to have enough to begin. There's never. There's never going to be.
[01:00:45] Speaker A: There's never ever going to be enough. Is correct. And it's sad.
[01:00:50] Speaker B: So. So. But I think, you know, if they.
I can't understand.
Here's a sad state. And I don't know if I'm right. And I'm. And I'm just going to put it out there in that. I think membership is. Is. Is for five stars. Like fifteen hundred dollars a year. And I think for just a regular member is like 700. 700. 750. I'm sorry, I don't know that right off the top of my head. It's a sad statement where $750 means something to a tile setter.
[01:01:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:01:20] Speaker B: That. You know that that's saying something more about the trade than it is about the association. Right. If $750 means is. Is a lot of money to you. That. And you're. And you own your own company.
I'm starting to. I think there's other questions that got to be asked. Yeah. Honestly. Exactly. And I don't mean that or please not rude. No. It's.
[01:01:41] Speaker A: It's truth.
[01:01:43] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't want to say I'm undervaluing any person's skill out there. That's not what I'm saying. Yeah. I'm saying you probably don't know your business or any more importantly you don't know your value. And that.
And you're letting your. And you're going after the wrong customer. And that you'll see this.
You'll see this next year. So I'll let it loose anyway. And that. Because you'll see it in my writings because you know the president of the NTC has to write a monthly letter. Presidential letter.
[01:02:09] Speaker A: Right.
[01:02:10] Speaker B: And that. I'm not looking forward to that. This is not too much train.
[01:02:13] Speaker A: Oh man.
[01:02:13] Speaker B: But, but, but you'll see this saying because it'll probably show up over the next two years several times I have this. And, and, and even when BART Medical, who's executive Director NTCA had. Had come to me about becoming on the executive Mini. I go, if you can understand this about me, then I'll come on. Yeah.
And I'm grateful to, to be a part of it. I go, but I have this fundamental belief. I don't believe tile belongs everywhere and I don't believe bad tile work belongs anywhere.
[01:02:41] Speaker A: There you go.
[01:02:42] Speaker B: And that, that. So if tile is a high end product and it therefore should be treated as a high end product, it is not a commodity surface. No. It is a surface put in properly will last way past your in my lifetime. And that so. And that. So when we start to make it a commodity, I have a hard time with that. So.
[01:03:03] Speaker A: So yeah, the house, the house that I live in has tile that's been on, I think 37 years. It's been on the wall. It was my wife's grandmother's, it came from Italy.
It's on there. My wife loves it. It ain't coming off if we pass on. And my daughter gets our house, she loves it too. So it's staying on. So to your point, it's like multi generational, for Pete's sake. And it's still on the wall.
[01:03:29] Speaker B: Right.
[01:03:29] Speaker A: It's crazy, but it's beautiful. So yeah, it's definitely, it's a craft, it's a skill, but it has to be done right and treated. Treated right for sure.
[01:03:39] Speaker B: I think good tradesmen treat their trade with respect.
Yeah, they do that and that how they. Everything from how they take care of their tools to.
Look, we've got your equipment.
[01:03:53] Speaker A: I know that.
[01:03:54] Speaker B: I'm glad, yeah, we, I'm glad we make it. You make it well, because we keep using it.
[01:03:59] Speaker A: That's the thing, that longevity. Same thing. We don't, we don't make it to break. We make it to last. And that's right. It's an investment and you want it to last.
Sadly, today we live in places where it's like you take a general like washing machine or dishwasher, what does it last? Two, three years and it's gone. You can't get parts for it. You got to buy a new one. That's not how we design our tools. They're built to last. They're strong.
If you need to fix something, we make it here in house so you can fix it. That's, that's what it's all about. It's like, it's to your point. It's looking after the customer.
[01:04:34] Speaker B: Right, right. Well, you know, it's interesting because I have two brand new DeWalt wet saws sitting up in the rack here. Right. And that's the only wet saw you can outside until you move to the bridge saws. Right. When you need the bridge saw.
[01:04:50] Speaker A: Y.
[01:04:50] Speaker B: Right. But for the everyday saw. Because a lot of our, our business is marble. We cut with wet salt. So, so that you know what those are to us disposable. Which is sad is not right.
[01:05:02] Speaker A: Yep.
[01:05:03] Speaker B: That's about, that's those salt. Those saws are about a 12 month, 14 month saw to us and then they're done. We're just, we're just going to trash them. They're just, you know, but yet, you know, we've got, you know, you're, you're carrying stuff that we've had here for years. So you know. Well, it's not here. It's on job sites today. But we're supposed to be.
[01:05:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:05:23] Speaker B: Which is good for me. But that, but I think.
And let's circle around back back that with what we're kind of saying is.
You used the word. I picked it up on it. And it's very much. It's everything to me is an investment.
[01:05:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:05:41] Speaker B: It's an investment in people.
It's investment equipment.
[01:05:45] Speaker A: Yep.
[01:05:46] Speaker B: It's an investment in the future.
[01:05:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:05:48] Speaker B: Right.
The one I'm not the one thing I don't want to confuse. It's not a guarantee.
[01:05:53] Speaker A: No.
[01:05:53] Speaker B: But it, but, but, but, but, but, but I'm going to put myself in the best position to, to, to that, that because I've made those investments that I, I believe they're going to pay off 100 in that and that. And I'll, I'll. I'll invest in people all day long in that and that and that. I'm going to spend the time we, we did this back coming out of that whole bad hire. I said I'm going to become the Google of the tile business. And what I meant by that was, was the attitude is you're going to want to come work for me.
[01:06:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:06:30] Speaker B: I'm going to make it where you're going to want to come work for me.
[01:06:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:06:33] Speaker B: And so what does that look like? And that, that wasn't money.
That wasn't just money. That was, that was the whole way we were going to look at everything inside the organization. And I think you can't be scared even to this day. I'm not scared to turn. Turn this whole organization upside down if I think it's necessary in an area of the organization.
If I feel like we're not.
I have no Problem. Literally just ripping the bandage off and let's start again.
And that. Because I don't think we have everything right. I think we're always looking at that. And can we build? Can. Can, Can. Okay. We made this investment. It took as far as we could. It was a great investment. Now we need to go, we need to switch gears because we need. We're not. This, this is taking us as far as we can get here. And I know we're speaking theoretically kind of. But. But I hope people kind of understand. I'm just never going to be scared to say let's flip it upside down.
[01:07:31] Speaker A: Yep.
Be able to move where you have to move and not be stuck rigid so long that it's like the old rat that gets caught in the sticky stuff. Once it's caught, it's dead.
[01:07:43] Speaker B: Right.
[01:07:43] Speaker A: You've got to be able and nimble enough at a dime to move a different direction and basically stay alive is what I was always told.
[01:07:53] Speaker B: I watched some of your other podcasts that you've done and, and, and there's different aspects of it. There's the guys that are real aggressive and they're going after a fast market and that I respect that. That's their marketplace.
That's not that. And I think as the individual has to define what works for them.
[01:08:12] Speaker A: Correct.
[01:08:13] Speaker B: Right.
It's a big tent. Right. It's a big tent. And the market goes differently in different aspects of it. So, so I'm not going to tell you the way I'm doing it is Right. But it was right for me.
[01:08:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:08:25] Speaker B: And so really, if you want you pull out of this is find what's right for you.
[01:08:30] Speaker A: Yep.
[01:08:31] Speaker B: Right in that and that. But, but I still think there's some bottom line underpinning that we have to have is respecting our fellow worker, respecting our person that works with me, respecting the people I work with. I work for the people that, that, that, that, that I'm always communicating with and understand that. That nobody. My value is not more valuable than their value.
[01:08:58] Speaker A: Correct. Wonderful.
Well, listen, sir, this has been awesome. This has been wonderful. I can't thank you enough for your time.
I know. Isn't that crazy how quick time goes when you're having fun?
[01:09:15] Speaker B: Well, Nadia said between you and I'd take us 15 minutes. Say hello anyway.
[01:09:19] Speaker A: Well, she was, she actually wasn't far wrong. Oh, that's hilarious. Now let's, let's talk. If someone wanted, wanted to join the ntca, how would they do it?
[01:09:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
You can reach out to me personally and I'll put you in front the tile association.
But if they. Interesting. If you go. NTCA takes you to some other thing, but it is tile association.
They could go at it that way on the website and get to them.
They could look DW Sanders up and they could send me an email very quickly and I'll put them in contact and get them.
Jim Olson is, as the membership director for ntca. I'll put, I'll put them in touch in a moment and that. So we, you know, I think, I think like everything which you absolutely would agree with, you get out of things what you put into them.
[01:10:13] Speaker A: Correct, Correct. And that garbage, my boss always tells me, garbage in, garbage out. So you gotta, you gotta take the time if you're going to join it. Give it what it's worth. And it is.
[01:10:27] Speaker B: That's right.
[01:10:27] Speaker A: It's a wonderful thing. Like give it the time of day. Don't expect that. It's all on the ntca. It's not. It's more on you than them. But they are such a resource for.
I would say it's a family. So you could go there with a family approach, and I use the terminology like a father and a son.
Like the son is the one who's coming up, who's growing, who's getting in the business. You have a father who's like a mentor, who's been there and done it. You maybe don't have that relationship outside, but when you come into the ndca, that's how it feels. And then suddenly it just becomes like you're. You're equals with one another. It's just wonderful. It's really good. It's a wonderful organization.
[01:11:11] Speaker B: You know, I was probably very intimidated when I first joined, right.
Because these guys are like. I'm looking at them going, these are the rock stars that I'm looking at.
And, and I'm looking at them to model my business behind them and wow, how did they get there? And, you know, I, I tend to be an open book of that. I'm very quick to tell you my failures much more than I am my successes, because I don't think I really learned in the successes. Yeah, totally. And, and has this happened? Yeah, it happened to me, you know, in that. And, and that. And there were guys like Dan Welch, there was guys who, who, who, who were great contractors here in the United States. Who, who, who. You know, let's take it full circle. Dan came back to me and was asking me stuff. I go, I don't know, that's hilarious.
And I was sitting there going, I kind of looked around, said, you're talking to me, you know, so.
[01:12:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's cool.
[01:12:12] Speaker B: So.
And that, but that, that's, you know, and you and I, before we came on the air. Sam over and so you write. Yeah, these, these are, these have become my best friends.
[01:12:23] Speaker A: I know, right?
[01:12:25] Speaker B: That's the coolest. Not like we talk every day. It's not like we see each other. You know, the industry is really good that way. You know, we'll see each other in coverings in a few weeks, you know. You know. Right.
And that, this is the, it's not always the direct.
It's, it's the, it's more subtle than that. Correct, right.
[01:12:48] Speaker A: Correct. 100%.
Well, listen, sir, thank you, sir. Thank you so much.
That is a wrap on our episode today of the Cutting edge installs. If you've enjoyed this episode, please follow, subscribe. Give us a like, if you've got a comment that you want to add in there or if you, hey, maybe you want to be a guest, just leave it on there. We'll pick that up and get back to you. These podcasts go out every other Thursday at 8:00am Pacific State Time. For more about Omni Cubed, the tools that we make to help installers, fabricators, please check it
[email protected] you can go on there. Check out the website, all the tools and they're designed to help fabricators. That's the whole thing. We're talking about people throughout this. They're designed to help people. Woody's nodding his head. He agrees.
But until the next time I see you all, stay safe and cheerio. Take care.
[01:13:39] Speaker B: Bye bye.
