[00:00:02] Speaker A: Good day everyone, and welcome to the Cutting edge install podcast brought to you by Omni Cubed, where innovation meets installation. And could quite literally be anything in between those two.
I'm your host, Merv Campbell, and it's an absolute pleasure to have you with us.
What's it all about? Why are we doing podcasts? Well, it's about celebrating, it's about talking to pros, talking, talking to installers, talking to experts and game changers. And you are going to love the game changer we have on today.
What are we going to do? We're going to dive into stories, we're going to share insights, we're going to have fun. And ironically, we have an Irishman talking to an Englishman today. And those two combined surely know how to have fun more than probably anyone else that has come on here so far.
So whether you're on the job, whether you're in your van, your truck, wherever, and you're just listening, you've come to the right place to stay sharp.
So let's get cracking. For those of you who may not know you, tell us who you are, give us a little bit about your background and what sparked your interest in the trades and what led you to launch the talking.
[00:01:14] Speaker B: I've got some chaos going on at home in the background here then, mate. I got like some kind of Christmas songs going off and all sorts. But yeah, do you want to, do you want to continue or should we carry on?
[00:01:25] Speaker A: Keep it's life? We are. Well, it will be okay, get it there. So go for it. Y.
[00:01:31] Speaker B: Believe it or not. And there's the first rule of podcasting is go and find a calm and quiet place to record a podcast and that's a really great start, hasn't it? So I do apologize. Don't worry.
So to introduce myself, my name's Ross.
I am a podcast host myself. I'm the host of a podcast called the Talking Tradesman which I started.
It'll be two years, two years in January actually. So not too, not too old. Yeah.
And as well as that, I'm a third generation painter and decorator. So I've been in the construction industry in the UK my whole life.
As I say third generation. The business was started by my grandfather and I'm proud to say I've also got my son in the business now. So four generations of painter and decorator over here.
[00:02:15] Speaker A: Yeah, that's brilliant. That's so good.
Yeah, that's generational is the way to go. And then you can always bonk him on the head if he does something wrong.
[00:02:25] Speaker B: It has its unique challenges, mate. It has its unique challenges.
[00:02:28] Speaker A: It does as well.
[00:02:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:02:30] Speaker A: Normally it's, oh, we're not talking about work when we get home. Around the dinner table, it's done. Let's move on to something else.
[00:02:36] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Do you know what, Merv? That was one of the very early things that I said to my son. I was like, look, the minute we leave the house in the morning, I'm your boss, you're my apprentice.
The minute we get home, leave it. Yeah, we. We get on pretty well 90% of the time with that. Occasionally it laps over. It's hard to maintain the solid line.
[00:02:56] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:02:57] Speaker B: But generally speaking, we do pretty well with it.
[00:03:00] Speaker A: That's awesome. Good man. Yeah, that's. I'm trying to get my. My young son into a trade and I'd love him to come work with me here, but we'll see how that all works. Who knows? We shall see. But you have, you've worn many hats over the years. A craftsman, a business owner, a podcaster, an advocate.
How have each of those roles shaped your perspective on, like, the trades today?
[00:03:26] Speaker B: Oh, mate.
So, first of all, it's one of the things I really want to get out there, because when I talk, the work I do with the talking tradesman is to raise mental health awareness in construction. Because over here, it's the worst industry in the UK currently for.
For suicide. Yeah. So I talk a lot about the risks, the causes and those factors that are causing that over here. But what I do like to reemphasize is that I love the trades. I've spent my life in the trades. I think it's a great place to be in terms of the way that it shaped my opinion on the trades. I think it's the backbone of everything. I mean, anyone who's listening to this now, if you have a look around you, that was built by a trades person, whether you're looking at roads, infrastructure, if the lights are on today, if there's running water, you know what I mean? That is the trades industry. So it's absolutely fundamentally important, but it is tough. It's a hard job.
Depending on where you are and how sort of like the industry is, it can be long hours working alone, it can be insecurity when it comes to things like finances, if you're self employed, you're chasing payments.
Yeah. It's got its ups and downs, but I do think it is truly a fantastic place to be. And I think the future, at the end of the day, demand dictates value.
And with the way that things are heading, certainly here in the uk, there's a huge shortage of skilled trades people and I can only see that getting. Well, it's getting bigger. That shortage, that gap, the skills gap. I think the last statistics we had over here were 10 to 1. So it's 10 out to 1 in currently. It's huge.
[00:05:06] Speaker A: That's huge.
Yeah, we're, we.
Although I'm Irish, I am based in California and a lot of the themes that I've been getting going doing these podcasts is that very thing where there's a, there's a dearth and a vacuum that's rapidly getting bigger.
And I think people are only starting to wake up now to no one's doing it like over here. And where I live at like a plumber, a welder, whoever can charge whatever they want because you get the free is tossed back at you. We'll go get someone else to do it then. And you're like, well, there is no one else. And it's like, well, that's how it is. So, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's, that's, that's ten to one, man. I knew it was bad, but I didn't maybe know it was quite that. That's a big, that's a void to foe.
[00:06:00] Speaker B: Massive, mate. But for the youngsters that are coming in, it just provides all the opportunity if you're in the trades industry at the moment. Yeah. From a selfish perspective, it's great news because as I said before, demand dictates value, so the less of us there are, the more we're worth and the more you have that sort of like the free ride over. Over what you charge into an extension.
But yeah, as an industry as a whole, it's a problem. I mean, as I said, I'm a painter and decorator, so the likelihood of me ever getting an emergency call out is very, very slim.
[00:06:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:33] Speaker B: However, we are sort of moving towards a point where you'd have somebody ringing an emergency plumber going, mate, look, I've got water pouring through my ceiling everywhere.
[00:06:41] Speaker A: Yeah, totally.
[00:06:42] Speaker B: The response they're going to get is, well, look, I'll be there in two weeks.
[00:06:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:45] Speaker B: What that, what then? You know, I've lost the power in my house.
[00:06:49] Speaker A: Time to buy a boat set in your house, basically.
[00:06:52] Speaker B: But again, I've lost the power in my house or the soonest I can get to you is going to be two, three weeks time.
Unless something changes eventually, we're going to get there.
[00:07:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Big time. Yeah.
If any young People are listening.
I'm a great advocate of getting into a trade. Like if you've went to college, fair enough.
But I have a 14 year old son and a 7 year old son and my wish for those two boys is get in a trade, find one that you like.
They're all different and they're all unique.
For me, I am the worst painter in the world. I will roll a wall. But see all that cutting in malarkey, no, thank you. So I know that for me to go for painting and decorating would not be a good trade. But I love, I hate, I hate to say it, I love electricity. So I like an electrician. I served a little bit of an apprenticeship as an electrician. I absolutely loved it.
There's trades that really stand out for each young person and some of these skills days that they do at school, a lot of young people will just bunk off and not show up. I would urge young people, go give it a shot. You may actually be surprised. You may be surprised.
[00:08:15] Speaker B: It's not only that the trades are evolving, I mean in my. So I've been running my business for 25 years now and it's nowhere near what it used to be. It's totally different. So the methods that we used to use, all stuff like the hand sanding that we used to do, days and days of sanding, saw fingers weaving in all that dust. Now we've got machine sanders, everything's automated.
And there's other niches in the industry, things like spray, finish it.
And there's some people coming into the industry now. I know spraying is a lot bigger in America, so a lot of the guys over there are all spraying everything. That in itself is almost like a trade. Of itself.
[00:08:53] Speaker A: Of itself.
[00:08:54] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. So there's all these subcategories within the category and that's the same for all the trades. You know, the methods of working are all changing and they're becoming a little bit more glossy and a bit more, I guess, appealing to the younger generation that gets to play with the machines and things like that. So I think, I don't know, again, speak. I can't speak about the education system in the States.
[00:09:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:17] Speaker B: But in the UK that is the problem because it starts at school. So the trades industry in the UK is so under appreciated in the education system that the kids are just not being directed into the trades. In fact the opposite. That presented that option as if you fail, you'll end up on a building site. And I know that because those exact words were said to my Son when he was at school, which was, you know, you need to concentrate because if you don't do well in your exams, you'll end up on a building site, which, as you can imagine, I took a bit of exception to.
[00:09:53] Speaker A: I would hope so.
Yep, totally.
[00:09:56] Speaker B: But it's. It's that exact attitude that is putting the. The impression into the Orsters of, well, if I don't do well, that's where I'll end up. Rather than, you know, if I'm going to do well, I want to go over there.
[00:10:09] Speaker A: Yeah, totally, yeah.
There's always been a negativity towards trades, brickies, electricians, plumbers, all of that, when actually some of those guys are some of the most skilled people that I personally know.
Like, I know a carpenter back in Makerfelt where I live, I lived at, in Northern Ireland. And some of the work that man did was unbelievable.
All done by hand. And you're like, dude, that is a skill and an art all on its own.
So don't. I get really annoyed when people degrade the trades and they're like, oh, you know, it's this. I'm like, dude, it's like, it's an art form. When you look. It's so funny when you look at a building and there's no plasterboard on the walls and you can see the electrician and the route he's taken with all the cables and it's pristine.
Everything's like perfectly level. You know, everything's wired to the T. It's coming into the junction boxes and it's. You're going, that's an art that doesn't even seem. But it has to be done right.
[00:11:19] Speaker B: Yeah. And it just gets covered up.
[00:11:20] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And I'm just like you. I'm like, oh, please don't do that. It's like, we should be, like, telling young guys what a wonderful avenue for you to go through, rather than, oh, that's where you're going to end up if you don't listen.
[00:11:36] Speaker B: And the thing is, there's a big. There's a big elephant in the room right now, which is AI. So AI is coming for a lot of jobs, a lot of admin jobs, a lot of things like, I mean, let's be honest, things like solicitors. All of a sudden, now you're going to have a pocket solicitor.
[00:11:52] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:11:52] Speaker B: You know, I think they say chat GPT at the minute has currently got an IQ of 1300, so you're going to have. The average person's going to have that in their pocket. Yeah. And there was an interview recently, I can't remember the chap's name, but it was one of the old develop of AI for Google. And he was asked what is the safest job with the rise of AI? And he actually said, go and be a plumber.
[00:12:14] Speaker A: Nice.
There you go.
So, boom, you're here to hear first people go be a plumber.
[00:12:21] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:12:23] Speaker A: So you're a host of a podcast, you tell honest, open stories from the trades.
Why was it important for you, my friend, to start that and for those voices to be heard?
[00:12:38] Speaker B: I mean, you've just summed it up really well there. My voices to be heard.
So it started off, it's grown a lot.
The journey into the Talking Tradesman podcast was somewhat. It's probably a 10 year journey for me. So I'm not going to take 10 years to tell you the story.
But as I say, as somebody that has worked it, I'm going to condense it for you. As somebody that's worked in construction for pretty much my whole life, I got to, I got to the age of 30 being completely ignorant of mental health, what that was and what that meant. Yes, in my personal life I went through a divorce, which is not uncommon. A lot of people go through that. But at that time in my life, I had two and a half years of court cases, battles over fair arrangements, to see my kids and all the usual stuff that gets thrown around.
What that did for me was it actually made me aware for the first time in my life that mental health existed. If you'd have asked me prior to 30, Ross, how's your mental health? My response would have been something like, haven't got it, mate. Yeah, yeah, that would be it. What I now know to be true is that everybody has it and everybody lives with it on a day to day basis. It can be up, it can be down, but we all have mental health.
I used to confuse mental health for mental illness. I thought if you had mental health, it meant that you needed, you know, wrapping up and getting help in that direction. Totally. So anyway, the long and short of it, when I went through the process of the divorce myself and I had it highlighted that I was struggling with a few things, anxiety, a couple of borderline panic attacks. The way that I dealt with it was to jump into education.
So I started to informally initially study psychology, evolutional psychology. I went down the right rabbit hole. I got into philosophy, Buddhism, all sorts of niches.
Right. And in reality it was because this whole area of life being mental health was now open to me. I understood, understood it existed. So I decided to learn about it in the hope that it would actually help me understand myself.
[00:14:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:42] Speaker B: Which is what I did. So I probably informally studied it for about three, four years, then decided I've got a real passion for psychology and decided to formally study psychology. So I started to do a BSc Honors degree in psychology.
[00:14:57] Speaker A: Right.
[00:14:57] Speaker B: I went down that path for some time, decided I wanted to turn towards counseling and therapy and in the process of doing that, decided to go and get some experience. So I started volunteering for an organization in the UK called Samaritans, which is a. For all of your American listeners.
It's a free service. It's.
Anyone can ring it 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. It's a crisis line where volunteers pick up the phone. The other side of the. The other side of the call, essentially.
[00:15:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:33] Speaker B: And I volunteered at Samaritans for 18 months in that time, manning the phone calls, taking those calls from people in crisis, which was. It was an incredible, life changing experience for me, really. The training was one thing, but just being in that position, where that led me, we're getting to the podcast.
Where that led me was that I started to realize I was taking a disproportionate amount of phone calls from people in construction, people in the trades. I'd start speaking to people and it'd be, you know, well, how's your money situation? How's, how's work? Yeah. And what I was getting back was, oh, yeah, I'm a builder, I'm a plumber, I'm a sparky, I'm a scaffolder, I'm a ground worker, whatever. I thought, this is weird, this. I'm speaking to far too many people. People from, from construction. Yeah. And being in construction my whole life, I had no idea what the statistics were. And it was actually while I was on shift one day when I sat down and explored that and I looked into the statistics and realized that the UK construction industry was so horrific when it comes to mental health statistics that if you work in construction in the uk, you're actually four times more likely than the national average to end up taking your own life.
[00:16:46] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. Wow.
[00:16:48] Speaker B: Which is horrific. It's overtook other industries in the uk, such as farming and things like that, for being the most likely. And at the moment in the uk, bearing in mind our population size, on average there's two people a day that are taking their own life in construction. So it's over 10 a week, which is a lot of people and a lot of families, a lot of people directly affected. Yeah.
Obviously, once I became aware of those statistics, I started to look into the why. And then once I started to see the why, it then became a what can I do?
And although I was volunteering at Samaritans, I felt like I needed to do something to directly address the situation and affect my industry in a positive way. And it was an offhand comment that I made one day to my wife where I said, maybe I should start a podcast.
Her response to that was, you should do, because you love the sound of your own voice.
Wow.
[00:17:43] Speaker A: Honesty sometimes can be brutal.
[00:17:45] Speaker B: But sure, believe it or not, and. And that was it. It was born. I've got to credit her because I'd never have followed through with it. It was one of those offhand comments for me.
She sort of, like, plowed ahead with it, found an office space.
We rented a small little office to begin with to record the podcast out of with no expectations. It was a passion project, and before I knew it, the whole thing had blown up.
Yeah, absolutely. It got industry back in. So we had a few brands come forwards and ask what they could do to support. They sponsored the podcast, put some finances in, which allowed me to reinvest, build better equipment, and within a year of starting the podcast, I actually rented a high street property that was used to be a dog groomers, did a big refurb on that and have turned it into a high street podcast studio. Dude.
[00:18:42] Speaker A: So epic.
[00:18:43] Speaker B: Yeah, it's been amazing, mate. We so not to promote my podcast on your podcast.
[00:18:49] Speaker A: No, please do. No, that's. No, please. I actually, this is like a passion of mine for, like, because.
Actually finish yours and then I'll. I'll chime in with my bet.
[00:19:00] Speaker B: Okay. Well, we're at a point now, so, like I said, nearly two years in. I think we've got 120 episodes live now.
And I've sat down with people from all walks of life. I've got a saying that I really like, which is that the podcast was built in construction for everyone.
So it started off very much a podcast where I thought, I want to give people, men in particular in the trades, a voice.
[00:19:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:23] Speaker B: To come and talk about why it's such a problem, why it's a struggle.
[00:19:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:27] Speaker B: And I thought initially I was going to struggle to get guests in because mental health men don't talk, walk, all of that kind of image. And it turns out it was completely wrong when I put the. The concept out there. I had an influx of people, and today, now there's very few people that I have asked to come on the podcast. Most people have approached me.
[00:19:49] Speaker A: That's so good.
[00:19:49] Speaker B: And it's been an incredible experience. I've sat down with some unbelievably incredible people, loads of people from the trades industry. But it's diversified a bit now, so I've sat down with medical health, mental health professionals, medical professionals, sports people, a few celebrities have come my way, and all people that have got a journey to talk about with value to add to the platform that can help others.
And, yeah, it's. It's kind of turned into a bit of a beast. I never expected it to be.
[00:20:20] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's. Dude, Fair playdyne.
It takes courage to start it, and it's a lot of the unknowns, but what a rewarding thing to do for people.
[00:20:34] Speaker B: That's massively.
[00:20:36] Speaker A: They. They joke around where I work at that I'm like the. The company shrink.
If people need to talk, they come to me.
I'm like you. I like the sound of my own voice as well, funnily enough. Why we.
[00:20:50] Speaker B: I think all us podcasters must do that.
[00:20:52] Speaker A: We have to at some point.
[00:20:54] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:20:56] Speaker A: It's funny because you're probably like me, where you can sense when people are kind of off a little bit, they try to hide it, but you're like, no, I can tell.
And so do me a favor.
Give your podcast a plug right now. Like, tell us where to find it.
[00:21:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you, man. So the podcast is called the Talking Tradesman, and you can find it everywhere. It's on every platform where you can find the podcasts, all the usual ones.
Spotify, YouTube, Audible, Apple Podcasts, all of those places. All you got to do is type in the Talking Tradesman and you'll. You'll find it. There's. There's a huge back catalog to go through there. I had the statistics back recently. We're in the. We're in the top 5% globally for video podcasts on Spotify now.
[00:21:45] Speaker A: Right on, dude. That's. Congratulations. That's.
[00:21:48] Speaker B: That's. Again.
[00:21:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:50] Speaker B: You know, landmarks are never expected to hit. It was genuinely a passion project that has just grown some pretty big legs.
[00:21:57] Speaker A: Yeah. And anyone who's listening to this and who's kind of on the fence with. I'd like to talk to someone, but I'm not sure. Go do it. Don't. Don't hesitate.
There's no, like with me. There's no judgments.
The same with yourself, because I Think. A lot of people think, well, if I say something, they're going to think less of me.
Absolutely not. We actually think more of you, to be quite honest, that you've come forward and said, hey, look, I'm struggling with this. Can you help me? Absolutely. Please go check out this man's podcast.
I've listened to some. They've been really, really encouraging.
And if you've got a problem, just. Just talk about it. It doesn't have to honestly talk to someone if you're Marty talking.
Yeah.
[00:22:44] Speaker B: It sounds like the most simple advice in the world. And often it sounds like it's too simple, because if people have got real problems going on, you think we're talking about it. It's not going to change anything. Trust me, it does.
[00:22:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:57] Speaker B: It just lift the weight.
I was given an analogy once, and I think it's perfect, so I'll share that with you. The analogy was a glass of water, a pint of water.
So if I was to hand you a pint of water, could you hold that weight?
And the answer to that question is, yes, of course. Of course I could hold a point of water. If I asked you to hold your arm out with that point of water, can you hold that weight?
Of course you could. But after time, point of water is going to get that heavy, that your arm is going to drop. Nothing's changed. The weight of the water has not changed. The problem has not changed. But the longer you hold on to it, the heavier it gets.
[00:23:39] Speaker A: Totally.
[00:23:40] Speaker B: And the analogy, the perfect, the perfection in that analogy is that if you put that point of water down and then pick it back up, it's a lot lighter. It's manageable. Yeah. And that's what talking about it does. It gets the problem. You put it down for a bit, you open up, you let it out, you take the weight out of the problem. Doesn't make it go away, but sometimes it just gives you that clarity. A problem shared is a problem halved. All of those kind of, you know.
[00:24:07] Speaker A: All of those statements, cliche statements that are actually true.
[00:24:11] Speaker B: Truth in the matter. Yeah, absolutely. And that's what it is. And that was one of the things that I experienced my time volunteering at Samaritans to experience that firsthand. Because it's a listening service. It's not an advice service. You're not there to provide advice. You're just there to listen.
So when people were ringing up with their crisis, you know some horrendous things that people were going through.
[00:24:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:35] Speaker B: I witnessed firsthand how just Talking about it for 10, 15 minutes, half an hour. The person was different by the end of the call.
[00:24:43] Speaker A: 100.
[00:24:44] Speaker B: So it's a great bit of advice if anyone is listening that is struggling in any way, shape or form, just talk. Just talk to somebody. Let somebody know how you're feeling. And the earlier the better because the longer you hold on to the weight of that problem, the heavier it goes.
[00:25:01] Speaker A: 100%.
Wow.
That was a really awesome answer.
This is really good. I'm so glad we have you on here.
[00:25:11] Speaker B: Thank you, man. I appreciate it.
[00:25:13] Speaker A: Yeah, we're both passionate about that Next younger generation, obviously your son.
I'm looking at my kiddo.
In your opinion, how can we better attract young people into the trades and then how do we equip them for success?
[00:25:31] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a great question, Merv, because obviously something is going wrong right now.
I think, personally I'll go back to education. It starts there. So bringing young people in, I think the whole image of the trades, certainly in the uk, needs to change. It needs to be more heavily promoted from a young age. So education, government incentives, things like apprenticeship incentives programs.
In a world now, everything's changing, mate. I mean, I'm 41 and I fortunately didn't grow up around social media, but the kids of today are. And they see all the glossy stuff. They see the YouTubers, the social media stars, the creators and influencers. And when you compare that, you've got, you know, a lad who sat making hundreds of thousands in his bedroom on YouTube versus you need to go outside in the cold, the wet.
[00:26:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:26:28] Speaker B: And graft.
It's hard, isn't it? How do you make that. How do you make that appealing to a kid? Yeah.
You've got to show the upsides. And it's strange how as well, again, in the uk, it might be an English thing, to be honest. People hate talking about money, but I believe it needs to be talked about openly. This is what you can do in the trades. This is what you can earn. This is the potential, this is the life you can have.
[00:26:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:26:54] Speaker B: And it's got to be.
It's like anything, mate. If you want somebody to buy into something, you've got to market it. And at the moment, in my opinion, the trades is not being marketed well.
[00:27:06] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree, 100%.
One thing that I try to tell my kids is that social media is not real life.
Like, we did a little tester a while back where we saw someone take a picture of a meal, they went to a restaurant and they took a picture of the meal.
And they tried to fob it off that. It was like what they had cooked themselves that night for dinner.
And so what I did was I took the picture and I kind of scanned it and then run it through a program. And it literally took me to the restaurant because it's the. The same dish that they keep making all the time.
And I was like, look, kids, it's like not to. Not to rat the person out. But it's lies. Like, it's fake.
It's always showing the best side of life. It's never showing the hard things. And it's the same with, like, you know, like, moms with kids. Like mummies, shall we say, if we're talking to a British person or your mom.
And the kids are always pristine, their hair's always brushed. Well, the house looks beautiful.
That's not real life. And so people get this, like, fantasy of how things should be, and then when they're not, they're very disappointed. And it's like, yeah, but it looks like that over here. But that's not reality.
And you have these influencers who are.
They don't do anybody any favors. I understand what they're like. They're what they're trying to do. But on the other hand, I'm like, can you just stop?
Because you're filling young people's heads full of this wild notion that isn't a reality.
[00:28:52] Speaker B: It gives them, unfortunately, it installs a sense of entitlement as well, is that the youngsters are coming through and they feel entitled to speaking bluntly, not have to work hard.
I remember my generation, so when I was coming through as an apprentice and I worked with my father, a hard day's work was championed. If I went home going, I'm exhausted. I've really worked hard today. I'll get a pat on the back. Well done. Yeah. So I would go home and I would feel proud that I was tired. There was a pride attached to that. Totally. It seems to have turned on its head now. Whereas the younger generation, if they go home tired, it's like something's wrong. I shouldn't be told.
[00:29:38] Speaker A: I shouldn't be this way. Yeah, totally.
[00:29:40] Speaker B: I'm being taken advantage of. I'm being used, whatever. It might be years gone by, Merv. So I've had several apprentices come through my business, and I've had parents reach out to me to tell me there's something wrong because their child is coming home tired.
[00:29:57] Speaker A: Oh, my word.
Wow.
What is.
[00:30:02] Speaker B: Where. Where do we go with that?
[00:30:04] Speaker A: Where do we go with that what it'll end up being is it'll be Mr. Bean with the can of paint and the explosives and there's no work. You just stick it in, cover what you don't want painted, and then that's literally what people want, the ease of light. But you're like, it's not. That's not how the world. That's not how we got here. Like, we got here by hard graft and determination.
And what's.
What's kind of cool is those. Those young people who do work, they stand out like a sore thumb.
[00:30:35] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. And, mate, honestly, the world is their oyster.
If. If you've got a youngster that is focused, determined, has the ethics to graft and doesn't, you know, wants to work hard. Yeah, they'll take over the world, mate, because the competition is. Is just. The competition's nowhere near what it was when. When I was that age. You were one of many. Now, like you just said, if you find that one. And we will talk about it, I've got loads of friends in the trades industry and we all talk about apprentices, whether to take them on, whether not to take them on, and we all talk. It's like, but if you can find that one.
[00:31:14] Speaker A: Yep, that's all you need.
[00:31:16] Speaker B: It shouldn't be like that, should it?
[00:31:17] Speaker A: No, it shouldn't.
[00:31:19] Speaker B: They should all be. It should. The exception should be the other way around.
[00:31:22] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:31:23] Speaker B: It should be that they're all the one. But now and again you get a bad one.
Now it's kind of accepted that most of them are terrible, but you might find a good one eventually.
Why? How has that happened?
[00:31:35] Speaker A: Totally flipped on its head. It's education, it's parents.
They're like it to your point where, you know, Jimmy, let's not. Let's not have him with calluses on his hands and, you know, coming home tired and you're like, no, that's what makes a man or a young lady.
[00:31:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:52] Speaker A: And it's. Yeah, it's, it's.
[00:31:55] Speaker B: And as I say, to. To just be. To have some personal pride in that, to go home and go, yeah, I worked hard today. Yeah, yes, I've achieved this. Look at all this work I've got done. And also a little bit of self sacrifice because.
And I don't mean that in a detrimental way, I just mean everything is very individualistic now. So, again, the youngsters seem to be a little bit averse to say, putting in the work for the company they work for. So the company gains long term, they will gain but at the moment, it just seems to be very focused on, well, what? Why do I want to work hard for him?
[00:32:33] Speaker A: Yeah, why should I? Why should I? Yeah, yeah, That's.
We could go on for hours, my friend.
[00:32:42] Speaker B: You've set me off.
[00:32:43] Speaker A: It's like, come on. Where?
Yeah, if you like.
Here's what I try to tell my kids.
Like, you look at these influencers online, you could actually be an influencer in the world. If you have a good work ethic and you actually work, you actually could influence. And you will, because there's no one else out there.
And so you'll influence your life. Because if you're a plumber and you get that 2:00am call, you know there's water leaking everywhere and you go, take care of it. You've helped that family. And then guess what? Your name gets out there. And then suddenly you have a repertoire and you have that little black book, and that's how you influence. And that's where.
Don't think. It's all like, our phones are a great tool, but there's. Sometimes I want to take them and throw it as far as I possibly can. Or go back to the old flip phone where you took a call or you took a text and that was it.
And we've become. We, sadly, and I. I'm one of them. We've become so reliant on it that we're always checking. Where is it? We're always checking it. You know, it's the next email that comes in, gets our attention or there's no, like, stepping back even on vacations and stuff. Like, I've done it where I've checked work emails or there's a. Calls come in and there's never really a time to just go dark. That's one thing we really fight for. And my boss is phenomenal at this. Like, really awesome. Where we're allowed. Or we take like a week, one a week in a year, and we are told, go dark. You don't pick up the phone, you don't look at emails.
You should have trained your team well enough that when you leave that it's actually done better than when you were here.
Which I always. When he first told me that, I was like, but doesn't that mean then you'll just get rid of me? And he was like, absolutely not.
And I actually did it and it worked and it was awesome. I came back and the guys that I manage and look after did a phenomenal job.
[00:34:55] Speaker B: That's brilliant.
[00:34:56] Speaker A: Awesome.
And it was like, wow, that's such A wonderful thing that I was able to take a week off and go dark and then, guess what, they get to go do the same.
And so it's that there's too much, there's too much visual, sadly, these days, and not enough just, you know, just chill out. People, like. And, yeah, I don't know, I, I, I can attest to what it's like in, in the uk, but over here, everyone is so impatient, they're always on age.
Heaven forbid, heaven forbid, the light goes green and you don't move your car often time because you get honked at and, oh, it's just not. But anyways, moving on.
How can leaders, business owners, even co workers, how can they create a more supportive work culture in the trades?
[00:35:49] Speaker B: I think being open, providing a safe space that people can express how they're feeling.
It's such a big question, that one, Merv. Because I know that employers would be scared to do that because what they don't want is their workforce coming to them every two minutes and going, I'm sad I can't work.
However, it's got to be that balance between their pressure at work, their expectations and then communication, because there's so much to do with what goes on outside of work that gets brought into work and a little bit of understanding, an openness. So if people knew that, that's struggling. Because I know, like, if it was you, if you had one of your workers or colleagues and they weren't performing for a week and it was really out of character, you've got two options there. You can either go straight in and give them a bollocking and, you know you're not performing. Pick it up, you need to do better. Yeah. Or if you've got the right environment at work, you can go to that person and say, look, I've noticed things ain't quite what they are.
Is everything okay?
[00:36:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:56] Speaker B: You know, what, what's going on? And then you might actually have somebody that says, you know what, Actually, I've got somebody ill at home. I'm really worried, I'm really anxious, I'm struggling to cope with this.
And in the long run, they're going to thank you massively and you're going to end up with a much better worker, co worker, whoever it might be. Yeah, but the supports, everything's got to be right because you've got to have, excuse me, you've got to have the correct ethics behind the company. Hard work has got to be rewarded and encouraged and then at the same time, providing a safe, open environment for people to talk if they are struggling.
So, yeah, it's something that's got to start right at the bottom all the way through the process, I believe.
[00:37:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:42] Speaker B: And there's a lot of companies out there that are way off it.
[00:37:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
Sadly. Yeah, we have, we work really hard for our company culture here and we have, we have core values that kind of COVID a lot of, you know, be encouraging environment for people to work in, like that. That's a value that we hold very high.
If you make a mistake, own it, but then use it next time as a way to learn.
And so it all comes down to, like, culture. It comes down to, like.
What's really weird is we work with each other here, but we also like to hang out. So, like, we go to the movies together or some of them like to go paintballing or some of them like to go rollerblading or, you know, and they're, they're doing that after work hours. And so if you've got even that rapport, like when someone's off and work, it can be a lot easier to say, hey, are you all right? Like, what's going on? And that's happened. Like, we've had, we've had one of our employees here, their mother was really sick and it affected them really bad and it was like, hey, how do we support this guy? Like, how do we help him? And he would walk through fire for us now just by doing that, I think.
[00:39:01] Speaker B: I mean, I'm not sure what the work scape is when in the construction industry in the States in comparison to the uk, but here we've got a huge proportion of the workforce in construction that are self employed. Lots of subcontracting is a huge culture.
[00:39:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:17] Speaker B: The problem with that is there's no umbrella. There's nobody there to capture people when they're falling.
The pressure's huge.
The legislations, when it comes to building, everything, the problem is it starts at day one. So for a big builder, buys a plot of land, there's so many. They make it so hard in the UK to build.
[00:39:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:39] Speaker B: That there's a lot of money gets used up at planning, passing legislation and that part as it gets smaller and smaller and smaller. By the time the houses are being built, a huge proportion of that part is gone.
[00:39:53] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:53] Speaker B: On legislation and legal and potentially, you know, just holding on to the land for however long they need to before they start building. So by the time it comes through the trades, that part is getting smaller and smaller and smaller.
Then you've got a large Subcontractor workforce, even with the main builders over here.
So they, you know, they're not checking in. Say, if it was me and I was on site, there's nobody that's going to turn around to me and go, Russ, you've done 80 hours this week.
[00:40:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:23] Speaker B: You know, if anything, it's encouraged. Yeah. It's just we need to get this job done. Yeah. It's pressure, pressure, pressure and squeezing at the bottom end of the rung. Yeah. And you know that the people, the legal, have took all the cream out of the project and gone off and had a great time.
And this is where the fundamental issues are caused.
There's not a parachute, there's nobody checking in on the smaller company, the subcontractors, there's no unions, there's.
And it gets very fragmented and unfortunately it gets very tribal in amongst the trades. So you then have, you know, the painters don't like the plasterers, the plasterers don't like the electricians, the electricians don't like the carpenters. So they're all squabbling in amongst each other and blaming everyone for all the problems, when in reality the problems were actually three, four stages above that before, you know, before the foundations went in. Yeah.
So again, over here, I think everything just needs an overhaul from point one, because if that pressure wasn't applied from point one, everybody would be given a bit more. A bit more leeway, a bit more rope, a bit more profit. And then it comes down to obviously, the. I've seen such a huge, huge change in culture and society in the UK in the 25 years I've been in business.
[00:41:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:45] Speaker B: From a personal level as well. I have to work so much harder now to have the same quality of life that I had 15 years ago.
[00:41:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:53] Speaker B: I'm no better, I'm better off. But everything is so much more expensive now.
[00:41:58] Speaker A: Yeah, totally.
[00:41:59] Speaker B: So, yeah, it's a bit of a spiral, really, Merv.
It's a. It's a great thing that we have the opportunity to work more if we need to earn more because we're not tied into, you know, salary.
[00:42:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:42:11] Speaker B: However, that's also very dangerous.
[00:42:13] Speaker A: I know.
So big time.
[00:42:16] Speaker B: Yeah. It's a big answer to that question, really.
[00:42:18] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. And it's. It's kind of a never a never ending answer either, because you cannot. There's so many different areas to hit. But you're in your 40s. I am too.
We're too young looking men.
[00:42:35] Speaker B: Frightening, mate, frightening. I don't know how that happened.
[00:42:38] Speaker A: We are in our prime. Right now, my knees sure don't feel it, but, you know, my brain's telling me it's fine.
What advice would you give to a young guy, young gal starting out?
[00:42:52] Speaker B: Look after your knees.
All right. Wow. That would be the one.
[00:42:56] Speaker A: Where were you 20 years ago? For me?
[00:42:59] Speaker B: That would be the one. Whatever you do, look at, listen, I mean, genuinely look after your body because you only get one of those. And I think if you're going to get into the trades from a young age, I did it myself. You think you're indestructible. All the knocks, the bumps, not wearing knee pads, not wearing ppe. It's cool, you know, I can't be bothered to put those on.
We all. And we all get there. We all get there. I had the older lads saying to me, look after your knees now. You'll miss them when they're gone. Yeah, and I do.
[00:43:30] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:43:31] Speaker B: You know. Yeah. I would say to the youngsters coming in one, it's going to be a great thing, a great career to have in the next 10 years, I believe, internationally.
But do take the time to look after your body for your own longevity. I've seen it as a third generation pain to the generations before me. I saw my dad get into his late 60s, still be working, struggling, bad. Not bad knees, bad shoulders, bad hips.
Saw it with my grandfather. The same thing. So slowing down sometimes.
[00:44:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:44:07] Speaker B: Take care of your processes, look after your body. It's the only one you're gonna get. Treat yourself with respect.
That would be my advice. Really awesome.
[00:44:17] Speaker A: That's good. Listen to him, he's a man of wisdom. Look after yourself.
[00:44:22] Speaker B: Wisdom all earned through mistakes, Merv. That's the thing.
[00:44:25] Speaker A: That's why I'm not giving any advice right now because it's like, oh, dear, here we go. But anyways, okay, last question. Kind of wrap it all up.
It's coming near the end of the year. Obviously when this goes out, it'll be Christmas time, but maybe not. The answer is maybe not Christmas. But what's one thing that you're like, really excited about right now that's like both personal?
Well, personal, professional and creativity wise?
[00:44:53] Speaker B: Yeah, a bit of a relatively deep one, mate. I think I came to a conclusion a few years ago where I just lifted the own. My own glass lid. On or glass ceiling. Sorry? On. On. What can be done, what can be achieved? Yeah. I've spent 25 years as a painter and decorator, but over the last three years I've moved into more things in that time than I have in the 22 years before that previous.
[00:45:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:19] Speaker B: So on a personal level, I am looking forward to seeing where the podcast goes next year. It's. It's grown bigger than I ever thought it would and the trajectory is maintaining. It's on this big upward trajectory, getting some great opportunities that are coming in with that. We've also, within the industry, myself and some business partners have launched an awards event for next year. So we've got that to look forward to. So we're launching an independent awards event within the painting and decorating industry called the Golden Finish Awards. It's the first. It's the first independent awards ceremony for painters and decorators in the uk.
So really excited to see how that plans out. That's going to be October of 26.
[00:46:06] Speaker A: Right.
[00:46:07] Speaker B: So, yeah, looking forward to that, mate.
[00:46:09] Speaker A: Awesome. Wow.
[00:46:11] Speaker B: Lots coming on.
[00:46:12] Speaker A: That's huge. That's really impressive. Good man.
Yeah. These podcasts are fun. They really are.
They're also beneficial. And so the talking tradesman, please go check it out.
This man has been, for me, a breath of fresh air today.
So, you know, it's a Wednesday when we're recording it, which is normally a hump day, which can either go one of two ways. It can either be joyful or it can be both.
Talking to this man, it's put wind in my sails to, like, go out to my team, like, look over them, see how they're doing, talk to them. And I encourage anyone that's got people who are under them, beside them, even in your families, like, take the time and look around, get off your phone, get your eyeballs up, look family members in the eyes. It's Christmas time that's going to be coming up.
Like, take the time with people.
One thing I will never forget is my dad would always say, this could be the last Christmas with someone. Don't ever regret it. And so take the time with them. If you know of some older person who doesn't have somewhere to go, I heard a really sad sort of percentage that there's roughly going to be about 28 to 29% of older people have nowhere to go at Christmas.
And it's like, we always go, it's Christmas, but there's also 51 other weeks in the year.
[00:47:43] Speaker B: Yeah. You know what?
Christmas is always a. It's actually a very hard time of year for a lot of people. It really is.
And I think, just to add to any reflection on this conversation, from what I have said, what I would say is I'm a big advocate for pushing the message that.
See, when we talk about mental health and men in particular, the first thing a lot of people will say to you is, the problem is men don't talk. We bottle it up.
Right?
In order for people to talk, there has to be somebody listening. So what I would say is if you're going to do anything, be that person. Be the person that people know can listen and will listen and provide a safe space for your friends, your family, your colleagues around you.
Just make sure that there is somebody to listen. So if somebody does need to talk, there's somebody there. Because that's the biggest problem a lot of the time is people feel that they can't talk. It's not that they don't want to talk.
[00:48:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:48:43] Speaker B: They just don't think that there's anybody listening.
[00:48:45] Speaker A: They're listening totally.
Well, Russ, thank you so much. I've really appreciated that. It's been a blast to have you on this podcast.
If you, the listener, have enjoyed it, be sure to follow us. Be sure to subscribe, leave a quick review, share it with your crew, with your friends, with family, whomever get it out there. These things are very important. They're good topics. They're good things to listen to.
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It's currently what, 5pm in the UK right now, 5pm GMT 9am here. So do the math if you're in the UK of when they drop. But for more about Omni Cubed, the tools that we design, how we help people, how we help fabricators, installers and the like, go on our
[email protected] thank you all for listening. Until the next time I hear you, Curio, stay safe and have a good one. Take care.
[00:49:43] Speaker B: Night Sweat.
